Stone's JFK film

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Stone's JFK film

Postby Tom Bigg » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:14 am

I recently saw the JFK film by Oliver Stone for the first time; well done, though Garrison was possibly not the best figure to use with the courtroom methodology.

Fletcher Prouty was the basis for much of the material presented in the film. The Douglass book, "JFK and the Unthinkable" published a few years ago struck me as following the same story line that the Stone film presented.

Any thoughts on some of these former intelligence experts? Plumlee also came out a few years ago with his information on an abort team: ... D607PtA5u0

Here is another intelligence officer who has a personal account:
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby bobspez » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:27 am

So do you think Stone's film was a fair depiction of Garrison's theories? Do you think Garrison was more or less correct in those theories?
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby Tom Bigg » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:34 pm

If you look at Garrison's history, he was not exactly a straight shooter as a judge:

He was scratching the surface of the conspiracy in the New Orleans connections. A homosexual ring of CIA connected people was definitely a reality with Clay Shaw a player in the conspiracy. But many of these people did not know what role they had as Fletcher Prouty showed; Prouty was the highest government official who went public on the conspiracy. He said that those involved in it were told what they were supposed to do but not the bigger picture.

I found it somewhat strange that Prouty would work for Scientolotgy to try to establish that their totally corrupt founder L. Ron Hubbard was in intelligence when he was in the military, when it was well established that Hubbard was a kook making false claims for years. ... -for-hire/
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby bobspez » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:08 am

Tom, there seems to be so many conflicting stories and accounts it seems impossible to know what is true and what is speculation and what is fabrication. Bottom line, do you believe the CIA engineered the assassination of JFK, RFK, MLK, and the attacks of 911. It seems they all have very common attributes, and cover ups, and the military industrial complex and those who benefit from our foreign policies are the only winners.
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby Tom Bigg » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:53 pm

Bob, that would be colossal treason if the CIA, Cheney, and Mossad were involved in 911.

I believe that the JFK assassination was a military hit; but there are a lot of questions on who were the assassins as it must have been carefully planned. Prouty and Oliver Stone were pretty accurate with most of the conspiracy, however, Prouty was involved with some highly questionable groups like Scientology, one of the most evil cults in the US!
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby Phil Dragoo » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:06 am

Oliver Stone relied on Fletcher Prouty--and John Newman. Jim DiEugenio finds the film well within bounds of historical accuracy tempered with dramatic license to fit the medium: Oliver Stone vs. The Historical Establishment

Prouty has left a record of interviews (see Greg Burnham, Assassination of JFK) and JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy

John Newman wrote JFK and Vietnam in 1992 with an updated edition in 2017

Garrison was vindicated when CIA admitted Shaw was an asset. Jim DiEugenio Destiny Betrayed original and updated editions show an unprecedented campaign by CIA and FBI to sabotage Garrison

Of course New Orleans was where Guy Banister the ONI/FBI veteran ran Lee Oswald out of his office as an pro-Castro provocateur

Shaw was linked to Permindex/CMC a Gladio operation involving Lemnitzer whom JFK sent to NATO from the Joint Chiefs--

See Horne, JFK’s War with the National Security Establishment: Why Kennedy Was Assassinated

We know from Bill Kelly's work that LeMay came down to the autopsy which Hornberger said had to be military:

Kennedy's refusal to send in U.S. forces to save the Bay of Pigs Cubans was the reverse of Ike's reaction to Dulles' request in '54 in Guatemala--but JFK said outright he would keep the country out of it--and he earned the military-intelligence bloc's hatred--

He noted Seven Days in May as significant. It would much later be followed by Mark Lane and Dalton Trumbo Executive Action a scenario alluded to by Prouty

Now Newman finds Veciana fingering Phillips/CIA as his handler suspicious--as it's impossible--it was military intelligence, not CIA.

Milint was on-scene in Dallas--and Pepper has it in Memphis--

Ike's warning January 1961 is of note

See also Michael Swanson, The War State

Kennedy attempted detente with Khruschev and demarche with Castro, disarmament, the end of the Cold War

He was terminated with extreme prejudice and Khrushchev was replaced by hawk Brezhnev October 1964

A Red November, A Red October--almost as though the world were the tripartite dystopian totalitarian Risk game board of Orwell
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby Bob Lilly » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:58 pm

Intriguing to think that CIA, Mafia and Joint Chiefs (Military Intelligence) may all have been involved (among others) and that they each had their hitmen in Dealey Plaza. Wonder if they then swapped lists of their guys to enable a tidy clean-up of loose ends. We know about the lists of mysterious deaths post JFK BUT has anyone compilled a list of accidents to CIA hitmen, Fort Brag rifle instructors, Mafia hitmen and free agent hitment ala Corsica. I bet there were a number of Accidents that claimed the shooting teams beyond the Pritzers and others. Also I don't think we know enough about Curtis LeMay's contribution. He loathed JFK as much or more than anyone and he was the only one who belittled JFK to his face, in front of others. Curtis was mysteriously absent in a remote place near Toronto Canada when it all went down. Until he got the all clear call and raced back to supervise the autopsy and subvert evidence of shots from the front. Was he at Camp X or Whiarton both equipped with radio transmission equipment to communicate secretly and direct a war if necessary? He could have been the "Football" during the brief capitation period.
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby JDB4JFK » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:16 pm

Great Post Phil way to educate people who think Garrison wasn't the right choice. He was the perfect choice and all the MSM has done since he exposed the CIA, The Military, and our crooked government, is to maliciously attack his character.

Jim Garrison was a "HERO" he took on the government that was lying to its people, knowing it would probably ruin his career.

My problem with this whole charade is, where were the so called patriots in our government, especially Bobby, not meeting with him to see his evidence. Jack Anderson did, and before Jack met with Garrison he was siding with the MSM, but after he met with Garrison he was 100 percent on board with Garrison. Now its too late to expose everyone, because all the people involved own 98 percent of all the media, and they can control what news or lies are written, said, and shown on T.V.
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Stone's JFK film

Postby Bruce Patrick Brychek » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:57 pm

3:57 p.m.,
Chicago, Illinois time:

Dear JFK Murder Solved Forum Members and Readers:


Mr. Phil Dragoo Thank you yet again for your analytical, brilliant, contrapuntal, directed, erudite,
focused, scholarly Overview of Oliver Stone's Hollywood movie "JFK."

You connect and develop many valuable authorities, historical landmarks, and references.

My world is certainly one of different perspectives than most. I grew up on the South Side of
Chicago, actual home of Alphonse "Al - Scarface" Capone, Anthony "Tony - Joe Batters" Accardo,
Salvatore "Sam - Mo Mo" Giancana, Johnny "Handsome Johnny" Rosselli, who could teach John (The
Teflon Don) Gotti how to dress better, Charles "Chuckie the Typewriter" Nicoletti, Jimmy "the
Sandman" Sutton, and Dan "Dangerous Dan" Marvin, to name only a few.

Giancana, Rosselli, and Nicoletti, all from Chicago, were all Subpoenaed to Testify before the
House Select Committee about the JFK Removal and Related Subject Matters.

Carlos Marcello from Louisiana, and Santos Trafficante from Florida, were not even on that radar.

I grew up down the street from the Capone Family, near James Earl Sutton-Files and Lieutenant
Dan "Dangerous Dan" Marvin.

It was common knowledge that The Removal of JFK came through The Outfit, and Chicago.

Regardless of what anybody alleges or states, it was believed, known, and understood at that
point in time the entire U.S. Criminal Enterprise was run by and through Chicago, Illinois.

From the late 1960's I already knew and met who removed JFK. To me it was no mystery. From then
on I was always focused on The Structure of The Top Down Approach.

Nevertheless I was impressed when the movie "EXECUTIVE ACTION" written by Dalton Trumbo, Donald
Freed, and Mark Lane, directed by David Miller, came out in the early 1970's. It covered and enhanced
facts and patterns that I knew to be true.

The Rumor in Chicago was that somebody "with inside knowledge secretly cooperated."

However, "EXECUTIVE ACTION" never gained the acceptance, notoriety, and recognition for truth that
I expected that it would.

Fast forward to the early 1990's when Oliver Stone's "blockbuster" movie "JFK" came out. Frankly I
expected much, much more.


True as Phil states, Stone clearly took artistic license. I also felt that Stone colored in a variety of fact
patterns almost as if to please everybody. Or was Stone honestly trying to get "We the People..." to
expand their consciousness and thinking ?

In defense of Stone, I believed that he had to hit "We the People..." over their collective heads to gain
renewed attention about The Removal of JFK.

For me the ONLY value of Stone's movie "JFK" was the Introduction and Development of Colonel Leroy
Fletcher Prouty, played by Donald Sutherland as "X."

Mr. Tom Bigg by 2020 I question the value of Stone's movie "JFK" for reality. Is it automatically assumed
as "the complete, total truth" by apathetic, under-educated, under-read "We the People...?

Robert "Tosh" Plumlee's story about the Abort Team I was always advised from insiders was complete,

Mr. Bob Spez I appreciate how you are always laser like focused in your observations. As far as Jim
Garrison, today we look through the Rosy Colored Glasses of 2020 at Garrison functioning in the early

I think that it is hard to analyze the actual challenges of Jim Garrison back then. I sincerely doubt that
Jim Garrison was ever properly credited, while certainly overly discredited. By Simple comparison look
at the Negative Academic Reception given to to those today who openly Question the Oklahoma Bombing,
or 09.11.2001 ?

Mr. Bob Lily I was advised that there were no where near the amount of shooters or shots on 11.22.1963
that so many claim today.

A simple observation by the man who shot JFK was that he was counting mIsses, until a head shot of JFK,
the desired target.


Mr. JDB4JFK I agree with you about the Quality of Mr. Phil Dragoo's Work Product.

I agree with the Heroism of taking on The Apparent Corrupt American Deep State, The High Cabal. The
Secret State, The Military Industrial Corporations, and the 17 Known U.S.Intelligence Agencies.


As always, I strongly recommend that you first read, research, and study material completely yourself
about a Subject Matter, and then formulate your own Opinions and Theories.

Any additional analyses, interviews, investigations, readings, research, studies, thoughts, or writings
on any aspect of this Subject Matter ?

Bear in mind that we are trying to attract and educate a Whole New Generation of JFK Researchers
who may not be as well versed as you.

Comments ?

Bruce Patrick Brychek
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby Phil Dragoo » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:36 am

Ruby was sent from Chicago in 1947 the year Lansky and Luciano met in Havana to map heroin routes--and partner with Trafficante--a Ruby employee noted one did not run drugs in Dallas without seeing Jack Ruby.

His orders to take out Oswald came through the call log involving cut-outs to Marcello, Giancana, Hoffa, et al diagrammed in Noel Twyman, Bloody Treason. "Someone cut my heart out"--and he relaxed when told Oswald was dead.

Oswald was recruited by Ferrie a Marcello associate.

Run by ONI, CIA, FBI--which have in common with OC and milint compartmentalization and need-to-know.

Roselli explained getting the patsy--and was canned--quite close to the heart attack of friend and colleague Harvey. Who ran the wet work, set up secret teams, counseled nothing on paper.

Dulles provided continuity--The DeLisle sentry removal tool, the Heydrich hit in Prague, "that little Kennedy he thought he was a god"--


Stephen Kinzer, The Brothers: John Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles, and Their Secret World War, Times Books/Henry Holt, New York, 2013.

Part I: Two Brothers; Chapter 3: Dull, Duller, Dulles; page 65, paragraph two:

All manner of European exiles and refugees poured into the Rockefeller Center office; one, Heinrich Bruning, had been chancellor of Germany until 1932. The office swelled to fill four floors. When that proved insufficient, Allen rented eight more offices around the city, including one at 42 Broadway, near the docks. He quickly became fascinated with the possibilities for “direct action” operations in Europe, and established a front called the Mohawk Trading Corporation, through which he assembled an arsenal of sniper rifles, silencers, poison pills, and other tools of the black arts.


Luciano had been used to prevent Communist dockworker sabotage--and of course Hoover denied the existence of organized crime.

To attempt to draw hard lines separating intelligence from military from organized crime from the scheming likes of Lodge, Bundy, Acheson, Rostow et al is counterproductive.

The coup was formed in the poisonous miasma described by Douglass in Unspeakable and is continued by the tacit terror arising from the death of those in violation of the code.

One will find the model in the Ned Beatty speech in Shooter (2007), in Colby and Dennet, Thy Will Be Done: The Conquest of the Amazon: Nelson Rockefeller and Evangelism in the Age of Oil, in Terry Reed, Compromised: Clinton: Bush and the CIA.

Avoid the fallacy of the excluded middle, for it is not and has never been either/or, but rather both/and.

Hence Robert Morrow, Craig I. Zirbel, Phil Nelson, Barr McClellan and Roger Stone in their myopic fixation on Johnson miss that he was merely another terra cotta warrior taking his place on the great mandala between Hoover and Nixon.

Morales was hunted down after Sullivan--then later, Colby, who attempted to atone for Phoenix by spilling beans.

Who Murdered the CIA Chief?
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Re: Stone's JFK film

Postby Tom Bigg » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:56 am

Excellent points, all. Especially liked the lucid material from Phil.

On the Colby "accidental" death, clearly he has alarmed some centers of power:

"Colby also focused on internal reforms within the CIA and the intelligence community. He attempted to modernize what he believed to be some out-of-date structures and practices by disbanding the Board of National Estimates and replacing it with the National Intelligence Council.[13] In a speech from 1973 addressed to NSA employees he emphasized the role of free speech in USA and moral role of CIA as defender, not preventer of civil rights. An attempt to rebut the then emerging revelations of CIA and NSA domestic spying. He also mentioned a number of reforms intended to limit excessive classification of governmental information.[14]

"President Ford, advised by Henry Kissinger and others concerned by Colby's controversial openness to Congress and distance from the White House, replaced Colby late in 1975 with George H. W. Bush during the so-called Halloween Massacre in which Secretary of Defense Schlesinger was also replaced (by Donald Rumsfeld). Colby was offered the position of United States Permanent Representative to NATO but turned it down."

"Colby's death triggered conspiracy theories that his death was due to foul play.[20][21] In his 2011 documentary The Man Nobody Knew, Colby's son Carl suggested that his father suffered from guilt due to his actions in the CIA and committed suicide.[20][21] Carl's step-mother and siblings, as well as Colby's biographer Randall Woods, criticized Carl's portrayal of William Colby, and rejected the allegation that the former CIA director killed himself citing it as being inconsistent with his character.[20][21]"

"Mr. X" (Fletcher Prouty) talked about how potential conspirators would be ordered to play certain roles, from handlers who they may or may not have known getting coded calls and messages. The whole plan was to avoid having the plot exposed and exactly how it was implemented.
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