Did A Shot from the Grassy Knoll Kill the President?

[Dan Allen]

Hello everyone,

Since I am new here, I am going to give a very brief introduction, then get to my questions about the shots taken from the grassy knoll.

My relevant background. You will not find me supporting anything from the Warren Commission. Just thinking about their worse than bad job makes me so angry...

I think Jedgar Hoover is the most important and prolific criminal in the history of our country.

In 1963, I was three years old. I blocked the assassination from my mind until I saw Stone's film, JFK. I am not certain, but I think I rented it and watched at home on VHS about as soon as it was available at the video store. That was the first time I learned that some people believed a coup d'é·tat had taken place in our country in 1963. I thought that was over the top, but the film had cracked pandora's box, because obviously, the government had been less than forthright regarding the information it had about Lee Harvey Oswald. I could not see how there could be a good reason for that. Bit by bit, over the years, I picked up a little information, such as GHW Bush's not recalling where he was when this happened, and then come to find out, by his own statement to the FBI, he was in or near Dallas, calling the the FBI on the day of the murder. In 2012 I moved to Houston, TX from Vermont. That was a big change. This year I started getting more into watching relevant YouTube videos, reading records and manuscripts to check up on what the videos say. A few months ago, I went to Dealey Plaza. That was one of the most important things I ever did. I know you know what I mean and the feelings it creates to see the lie. I am determined never to step foot into that 6th "museum" until it is corrected in what it presents and stands for. I think there was a coup d'é·tat and I think our country has been going down hill ever since as a result of lies being at the center of our government and our Democracy being overthrown. Kinda strange how LBJ, Nixon, Ford, and GHW Bush all were in Dallas when this happened. Those four among the next five presidents after jfk. f***rs.

Here, in this forum, you won't find me arguing with anyone. For every bit of knowledge I have, there are gaps ten times greater between the bits I know. I am hoping to get some help filling in gaps in some areas so I can help people in my life, starting with me, know exactly what is true, what is a lie, and what we cannot be sure about. If I can help people here, as in people newer than me as time goes on, I will.

About shots from the grassy knoll. I understand people saw smoke and heard at least one shot from the grassy knoll. For a few years, it had been my understanding that the shot from the front that blew up our president's head was believed to have come from the grassy knoll. When I got to the grassy knoll, as close as I could get to where Zupruder had his camera, and then over the fence where the smoke was seen, it looked to me like that is not really in front of the car, but a lot closer to the right of the car. On top of that, the President was looking slightly to his left when the fatal shot landed. It seemed to me that combination of angles would have created an exit would on the back LEFT of his head, or even the left side, given an entry at the hairline on his right side above his eye. I am wondering if you can help me understand where the lethal must have come from and how it would create the wounds we know about. When I say the wounds we know about, I mean the ones described by all the doctors and other medical staff at Parkland, and eyewitnesses who were close enough in Dealy Plaza. I have no doubt the President's body was mutilated between Parkland and Betheseda to conceal what happened. I have no doubt that all the evidence supplied by Bethesda was tampered, so I don't pay any attention to the autopsy, except when I am reading some of the great work by great medical people who can sift through the BS of the autopsy to find real information.

My question right now is whether the lethal shot creating the exit wound in the back right of his head could have come from the grassy knoll. I am perfectly prepared to believe my description of what happened is inaccurate enough for the lethal shot to have come from the grassy knoll. If it didn't, I presume there were other firing positions, possible on the south knoll or the storm drain. The single theory. The only thing of value in the single bullet theory is it proves Arlen Specter is not to be relied upon in the arena of logic.

Thank you.

[Tommy Wilkens]

Welcome to the Forum Dan.You will find many here on the Forum who will be willing to share with you there belief's on the shot's from behind the fence.A lot of really sharp members here Dan.You will find this Forum very helpful and fascinating.

[Bob Lilly]

Hi Dan. Welocome. Here you will see the trajectory of the actual fatal shot from the grassy knoll that killed JFK. Study the trail of the bullet closely..it matches.. This is a long ago post attached and hope it works.. Watch the Muzzle flash..
Long ago I wrote.. beiieve I reposted with slow mo at later date
Bob Lilly wrote:
In the NIX film we can see what looks like the muzzle flash of the knoll shot. There are two versions here. In the longer one the muzzle flash occurs about second number 11. In the shorter version it occures right at the beginning. Set your viewer to repeat. Study the top left corner of the screen (do not look at kennedy until you are comfortable about the flash location). The flash extends from outside the left of screen (behind picket fence?) downward and to the right from the top corner of the wall and tracing across the shadow of the wall. Note that the location, trajectory and timing are all perfect as a split second later a chuck of kennedy's head flies off to the rear. There are other interesting things on this film but is this the prrof, the "smoking gun"?
http://www.jfk-online.com/1nix.html

[Bob Lilly]

Dan,
Here is another account from NIX film. From prior post.

Watch it repeatedly and if you can in slow motion at the 128 count. You see the bullet from the grassy knoll impacting his head.
Bob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU4mAVCprAU

[Dan Allen]

Thank you for the warm welcome. I appreciate it immensely.

Unfortunately, I am not able to support your account of the Nix film. I am not saying your account is wrong, I just don't see in the film an image clear enough to convince me that only a gun shot could make the apparent flash at the time President Kennedy was hit with the fatal shot. I think an experiment is needed, where the Nix images are reproduced by filming a gunshot from that location with a camera like Nix's under conditions in effect in his film.

Another issue: I am puzzled how a shot from that angle could create the would on the right side of the back of the President's head.

Related Topic: Bullet hole in the windshield.

NIX FILM IS TOO BLURRY TO PROVE WHAT IS CAUSING THE FLASH AT THE TIME OF THE FATAL SHOT
I downloaded both versions of the Nix film and viewed both at least 20 times. I looked in the upper left corner of the screen. Unfortunately, I am unable to see anything that could be the flash of a gunshot and nothing else. How do you know the apparent flash is from a gunshot? Has this image been recreated by reenacting the scene and filming a gunshot with a camera like Nix's from the place where Nix had the camera under the same lighting conditions? If Nix's film could be shown side by side with a film that is known to have been made while a shot was being fired, and the image in the recreated version matches the Nix version, that would be partial proof the Nix film shows a gunshot. It would prove that a gunshot recreates the image, but total proof has to show more than that. It has to show that no other object/action besides a gunshot could make the blurry image we see today. Given how blurry the image is in the film, I doubt it can be proven that nothing besides a gunshot could have have mae this image. It still would be worthwhile to attempt recreating the Nix images to prove that a gunshot makes the same image. Without recreating the image, I don't think the Nix film proves anything a shot from the grassy knoll. It is too blurry to be solid proof.

HOW DID THE SHOT FROM THE GRASSY KNOLL PRODUCE THE WOUND IN THE BACK RIGHT?
Assuming the fatal shot is the one you see from the grassy knoll in the Nix film, how did a shot from that angle create the wound in the back right of the President's head. From the grassy knoll, it seems to me a shot into the President's head would be expected to produce an exit wound either on the left side of his head, not the right. From that spot on the grassy knoll, a shot into the president's head would have been at an angle something closer to 90 degrees to the right than 0 degrees (head on from the front).

WAS THERE A BULLET HOLE IN THE WINDSHIELD
A secret service agent, two Dallas policemen, a doctor at Parkland, and a guy at the Ford factory all say there was a bullet hole made from the front in the windshield? I understand their accounts have been rebutted in a manner that makes it impossible to know whether or not there was a bullet hole. I wish the proof was better, because if it could be proven, the bullet hole alone wrecks the Warren Report. What do you think about this?

[kenmurray]

Welcome to the forum Dan!

[JDB4JFK]

Welcome to the forum Dan! I have struggle with the trajectory of the kill shot also. Bullets follow in straight lines is what I was taught. Last time I brought this up on this forum I was told it was because it was an exploding bullet. A shot from the North Grassy Knoll would lead you to believe it would have exited JFK in the back left. The entrance wound to JFK'S right temple, and exit at bottom right of back head does line up better as either a shot from straight on and to the left of JFK, OR South Knoll. When William (Bill) Cooper was working for Naval Intelligence he claimed he came across paperwork saying the driver shot JFK. I think unless we see the original Zapruder film we may never know!


Once again Welcome!!!

[Slav]

Welcome Dan

I believe there where many shots from all different directions

James files from side
Nicoletti from behind
Frank sturgis from the south knoll there was gunshot and smell of gunpowder from that area
Jack Lawrence from the drain on top of the knoll

And others
One on roof of record building
One of roof of dal Tex with Nicoletti lower down in the same building
2 shooters in depository
Bullets were flying

I believe some bullets him jfk at around the same time and Frank Sturgis bullet knocked out jfk right lower side

Get a watermelon have 4 guys shoot at it from different angles you will see what happen, when I did it believe me we didn’t use exploding bullets and that Mellon sure looked like jfk head.

I do not believe only 2 bullets hit him in the head.

My opinion that’s what I think

Take care and please stick around we need more new people here .

[steve manning]

Hi Dan,

You sound like a very objective man who is only searching for the truth of what happened, and I respect that the most when it comes to investigating this crime.
I agree this is one of the more informative JFK sites, but like anything in this life, I believe it’s not a completely accurate picture of what happened, namely, the trajectory of the head shot(s). I try not to throw the baby out with the bath water, but attempt to incorporate just about any reasonable idea and then thoroughly rule them out objectively and honestly, before dismissing them.

In questioning 'where' the kill shot(s) came from you will no doubt be unsatisfied with the feedback on this subject, which you may or may not get. Further, you might conclude there is a bit of inconsistency about the events that allegedly took place ‘in front’ of the motorcade. Such an idea the rumor of the ‘Abort Team’ has instant credibility on this site, because, it was revealed by, James Files, their primary subject. They acknowledge the idea was mentioned by Nicoletti, but don’t apply the theory in any way in order to test it out (as you have) before dismissing it.

For what it might be worth Dan, I agree with your assessment of the head wound inflicted from somewhere other than the book depository or anywhere else behind the President’s motorcade. I attempted to present the same ideas, (which you can look up on this forum from 2009). I attempted to get into several details about the real role of the Abort Team while contending that the alleged throat shot came from the front of the motorcade as well. Again, you can look up for yourself to see what happened. I don’t know if you read Wim’s book, but his thesis about the head shot is, to say the least, slightly at odds with ours. The inconsistency I referred to earlier is while they seem to agree with the idea that a supposed ‘Abort Team’ was mentioned, they dismiss it from having any kind of actual effect on the overall assassination plot. Wim responded by reiterating his beliefs as they are laid out in his book. For example, his main beef about the theory of the throat shot coming from the front was, a shot that early (from the front) would have been in conflict with the plan of making it appear the shots only came from the rear. The plan was to shoot only from the front, when and if they missed from the rear. Well I agree this may have been the original plan, but doesn’t Wim’s own account of what happened suggest there were last minute changes? If every shooting team in the plaza heard about a possible abort, wouldn’t this mean those who still wanted to go through with it had to be even more certain about getting the job done this time. I tried to make the point that it is November 1963. The final stretch of the re-election campaign would begin in just a few weeks. Surely they would rather have got the job done before the new year. After failing to get it done at least one other time (Miami), they had to be sure they got him this time, or chances are it would be even messier the closer they got to the election of 1964. He simply could not leave the plaza alive. Would not the remaining teams in the plaza who were still ready to go ahead in spite of the order to Abort, would have to make some last minute changes to their original plan. Namely, the idea of shooting from the front before anyone could shoot him from the rear (probably used a silencer). After the abort order came down, how would any other shooter left in the plaza know if there were still any shooters left behind the motorcade. Presumably, the only shooters left were mostly mob because the order came from the CIA. Giancanna still wanted the job done. Therefore, assuming any of the teams actually obeyed the abort order (and left the plaza), the remaining shooters (including someone on the south knoll or under the overpass, who fired the throat shot that no doubt went through the windshield). They may have thought at that point, to take any shot they could get, and leave no chance for JFK to leave the plaza alive.

Furthermore, I believe James Files. He could very well have done everything he said he did. But he said himself he did not know who else was shooting in the plaza other than Mr. Nicoletti.

I believe the shot that caused the defect in the right rear of JFK’s head came from the end of the triple overpass at the point where it met with the picket fence (probably used a silencer). There is at least one photo of one of the cops who ran up the knoll to that very point and stood up on the section of concreate railing which rounds that corner at a 45 degree angle. Yes, I believe Files could have also fired from where he claimed as well. However, I doubt an explosive bullet would have caused the cone shape exit that another high powered rifle would. Files shot could have still hit JFK in the side of the head above his ear, but it would have exploded rather than passed through? The other guy no doubt hit JFK in the temple. At that angle, it would have been like slicing off the side of a holiday ham and came out the same side of the head.

[Slav]

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg ... m%2023.pdf

[Slav]

http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/wp-c ... 3/S022.jpg

[Slav]

Lorenz also testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations where she claimed that Sturgis had been one of the gunmen who fired on John F. Kennedy in Dallas from the South Knoll The committee dismissed her testimony, as they were unable to find any other evidence to support it.

[Slav]

http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/wp-c ... 3/S018.jpg

[Dan Allen]

I have struggle with the trajectory of the kill shot also. Bullets follow in straight lines is what I was taught. Last time I brought this up on this forum I was told it was because it was an exploding bullet. A shot from the North Grassy Knoll would lead you to believe it would have exited JFK in the back left. The entrance wound to JFK'S right temple, and exit at bottom right of back head does line up better as either a shot from straight on and to the left of JFK, OR South Knoll. When William (Bill) Cooper was working for Naval Intelligence he claimed he came across paperwork saying the driver shot JFK. I think unless we see the original Zapruder film we may never know!


Once again Welcome!!!

JDB4JFK, Thank you for sharing what you know and reason from it. While I am relieved to discover I am not on my own here, I am deeply concerned by the disappointing fact that the people dedicated to discovering and making known the truth and unable to coordinate our findings in a way that filters falsehoods from our knowledge base. More on this below.

Welcome Dan
Get a watermelon have 4 guys shoot at it from different angles you will see what happen, when I did it believe me we didn’t use exploding bullets and that Mellon sure looked like jfk head.

Slav, I looked at the pictures you posted, showing angles from various positions to JFK's head. That is perfect and helpful for where I am getting up speed on this. You are one of my heroes for today.

I would love to get some watermelons a gun, then find a place to shoot it from various directions. I have several problems using this approach:
1. I don't have a gun.
2. I am not willing to believe the only way for me to find out what would happen in the experiment you suggested is for me to go out and conduct the experiments myself. There must an authoritative and correct record of such experiments already available. I actually found experiments bound to be as good as any I would make on a first attempt. Slav, here is my question to you. If I did the watermelon shooting the it needs to be done, and my own facsimile of JFK's head, how do I get from there to seeing the evidence for all the different shots fired?

Hi Dan,

You sound like a very objective man who is only searching for the truth of what happened, and I respect that the most when it comes to investigating this crime.

steve manning, thank you for writing that. I am pleased to see that so far, I have not degenerated into the babbling idiot I always become when I stay focused on a subject long enough.

...

Steve manning and slav, (I am sorry for missing anyone I should mention at this point. It just means I have not digested what you told me.)

I am glad I found you. I really mean that in a big way. I am going to have to lookup the older posts you mentioned and get up speed on the Abort Team. I don't remember encountering the term Abort Team before. I am familiar enough with James Files's claims to follow what you wrote about him, Nicolletti,and the rest of the shooters he didn't know about, but not familiar enough to know for sure whether James Files was in Dealy Plaza for the Big Event. I am not challenging any of that, I just don't have it nailed down, the way I have nailed down the one thing that got me into this: I am very comfortable claiming to know the Lee Harvey Oswald who was charged and then murdered was known to the CIA and FBI prior to the Big Event. I know JedgarHoover could not possibly have known that Oswald was a lone assassin two days after the Big Event when he drafted the memo, in effect, ordering FBI agents to frame Oswald. That crooked event is the probable cause justifying a new investigation. James Files is a person of interest to me personally, but I can pin nothing on yet at this juncture.

Slav and Steve Manning, I want to express special thanks for the whiff of coffee. I am going to need a lot of those. I am not interested in researching matters that already have been investigated. Looks to me like you have done some investigation on how this behaves and have discovered less than 100% dedication to plain reason and facts.

You also have investigated the allegation of a catastrophic shot coming from the grassy knoll, the right end of the triple underpass and a number of other position. What you have laid out is gold. I can see it really good work have done and it has had time to cure and get corrected to a fine level of detail. That make you one of my heroes of today! I mean it.Thank you. I am assuming you have me aimed now at the best information available on the subject presented in an understandable and unambiguous way.

Is there anyone here from the FBI who can acknowledge the availability of this information, along with either an expression of concurrence or a credible rebuttal? *** expecting a long silence on this one ***

[Slav]

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/forum/

It was an FBI agent years ago who revealed James Files in jail as the grassy knoll shooter