Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Knowing the truth about the Kennedy Assassination is understanding America today.

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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Tom Bigg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:16 pm

Slav wrote:I believe James and Nicolletti shots, but I also believe there was a front shot threw the windshield threw the throat as the doctor said who was told to lie, that came from the south knoll.

This is my belief

1. Who was the heavy set guy near Files if it wasn’t Ruby?

If someone was shot in the throat with a regular bullet the only thing you would get is a small entrance hole just like his back

http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/12689540 ... 2-full.jpg


Who are the candidates? Frank Sturgis, or was he just involved in planning? I would like to go through all the witness versions and try to reconcile them, probably someone has done this. Hoffman said there was a heavy set man and a younger guy working together behind the fence. But the fence was pretty long, were there any other shooters behind it?
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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Bob » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:23 pm

Tom Bigg wrote:
Slav wrote:I believe James and Nicolletti shots, but I also believe there was a front shot threw the windshield threw the throat as the doctor said who was told to lie, that came from the south knoll.

This is my belief

1. Who was the heavy set guy near Files if it wasn’t Ruby?

If someone was shot in the throat with a regular bullet the only thing you would get is a small entrance hole just like his back

http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/12689540 ... 2-full.jpg


Who are the candidates? Frank Sturgis, or was he just involved in planning? I would like to go through all the witness versions and try to reconcile them, probably someone has done this. Hoffman said there was a heavy set man and a younger guy working together behind the fence. But the fence was pretty long, were there any other shooters behind it?


Jimmy Files said that Frank Sturgis was in Dealey Plaza that day, but he noted that Sturgis was wearing a pilot's or flight jacket that day. The man Lee Bowers saw was just wearing a white shirt. One possibility might be David Morales, who was nicknamed the "Big Indian or "El Indio" by some. It is also believed that it was Morales who drove the Rambler station wagon that Lee Harvey Oswald jumped into on Elm Street, which was noted by Roger Craig. Now it is also possible that Morales was actually in the TSBD (Sixth Floor) at the time of the assassination, but he was definitely at the scene one way or the other. It was Morales who coined this famous quote, talking about the JFK and RFK assassinations, "I was in Dallas when we got the son of a bitch and I was in Los Angeles when we got the little bastard."
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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Slav » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:10 pm

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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby kenmurray » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:46 pm

21 Cops who heard a grassy knoll shot:

http://jfkfacts.org/21-jfk-cops-who-hea ... noll-shot/
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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Bob » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:04 pm

kenmurray wrote:21 Cops who heard a grassy knoll shot:

http://jfkfacts.org/21-jfk-cops-who-hea ... noll-shot/


Outstanding work once again, Abraken Linkin, aka Link Murraydale! 8)
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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Tom Bigg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:14 pm

Slav wrote:http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKlorenzM.htm


A classic example of a limited hangout is how the CIA has handled and manipulated the Church Committee's investigation of two years ago. The committee learned nothing more about the assassinations of foreign leaders, illicit drug programs, or the penetration of the news media than the CIA allowed it to discover. And this is precisely what the CIA is out to accomplish through HSCA with regard to JFK's murder.

Chief among those to be exposed by the new investigation will be E. Howard Hunt, of Watergate fame. His luck has run out, and the CIA has decided to sacrifice him to: protect its clandestine services. The agency is furious with Hunt for having dragged it publicly into the Nixon mess and for having blackmailed it after he was arrested.

Besides, Hunt is vulnerable - an easy target as they say in the spy business. His reputation and integrity have been destroyed. The death of his wife, Dorothy, in a mysterious plane crash in Chicago still disturbs many people, especially since there were rumors from informed sources that she was about to leave him and perhaps even turn on him.

In addition it is well known that Hunt hated JFK and blamed him for the Bay of Pigs disaster. And now, in recent months, his alibi for his whereabouts on the day of the shooting has come unstuck.

In the public hearings, the CIA will "admit" that Hunt was involved in the conspiracy to kill Kennedy. The CIA may go so far as to "admit" that there were three gunmen shooting at Kennedy. The FBI, while publicly embracing the Warren Commission's "one man acting alone" conclusion, has always privately known that there were three gunmen. The conspiracy involved many more people than the ones who actually fired at Kennedy, both agencies may now admit.

A.J. Weberman and Michael Canfield, authors of Coup d'Etat in America, published pictures of three apparent bums who were arrested at Dealy Plaza just after President Kennedy's murder, but who were strangely released without any record of the arrest having been made by the Dallas police. One of the tramps the authors identified as Hunt. Another was Frank Sturgis, a long time agent of Hunt's.

Hunt immediately sued for millions of dollars in damages, claiming he could prove that he had been in Washington D.C. that day-on duty at CIA. It turned out, however, that this was not true. So, he said that he had been on leave and doing household errands, including a shopping trip to a grocery store in Chinatown.

Weberman and Canfield investigated the new alibi and found that the grocery store where Hunt claimed to be shopping never existed. At this point, Hunt offered to drop his suit for a token payment of one dollar. But the authors were determined to vindicate themselves, and they continued to attack Hunt's alibi, ultimately completely shattering it.

Now, the CIA moved to finger Hunt and tie him to the JFK assassination. HSCA unexpectedly received an internal CIA memorandum a few weeks ago that the agency just happened to stumble across in its old files. It was dated 1966 and said in essence: Some day we will have to explain Hunt's presence in Dallas on November 22, 1963 - the day President Kennedy was killed. Hunt is going to be hard put to explain this memo, and other things, before the TV cameras at the HSCA hearings.

Hunt's reputation as a strident fanatical anti-communist will count against him. So will his long and close relationship with the anti-Castro Cubans, as well as his penchant for clandestine dirty tricks and his various capers while one of Nixon's plumbers. E. Howard Hunt will be implicated in the conspiracy and he will not dare to speak out-the CIA will see to that. In addition to Hunt and Sturgis, another former CIA agent marked for exposure is Gerry Patrick Hemming, a hulk of a man-six feet eight inches tall and weighing 260 pounds. Like Sturgis, Hemming once worked for Castro as a CIA double agent, then later surfaced with the anti-Castro Cubans in various attempts to rid Cuba of the communist dictator. But there are two things in Hemming's past that the CIA, manipulation HSCA, will be able to use to tie him to the JFK assassination.

First, Castro's former mistress, Marita Lorenz (now an anti-Castroite herself), has identified Hemming, along with Oswald and others as being part of the secret squad assigned to kill President Kennedy. And secondly, Hemming was Oswald's Marine sergeant when he was stationed at CIA's U-2 base in Atsugi, Japan-where Oswald supposedly was recruited as a spy by the Soviets, or was being trained to be a double agent by the CIA.

In any event, Hemming's Cuban career and his connection with Oswald make the Lorenz story difficult for him to deny, particularly since the squad allegedly also included Hunt and Sturgis.

Who else will be identified as having been part of the conspiracy and/or coverup remains to be seen. But a disturbing pattern is already beginning to emerge. All the villains have been previously disgraced in one way or another. They all have "right wing" reputations. Or they will have after the hearings.

(4) Mark Lane, Plausible Denial (1991)
Howard Hunt, close associate of David Atlee Phillips, with whom he worked in the both the CIA's Guatemalan campaign of 1954 and the Bay of Pigs invasion of 1961. Hunt would later be arrested for his role in the Watergate affair. … In one of Hunt's libel suits, one Marita Lorenz gave sworn testimony that Lee Harvey Oswald, American mercenaries Frank Sturgis and Gerry Patrick Hemming, and Cuban exiles including Orlando Bosch, Pedro Diaz Lanz, and the brothers Guillermo and Ignacio Novo Sampol, had met one November midnight in 1963 at the Miami home of Orlando Bosch and had studied Dallas street maps. She also swore that she and Sturgis were at that time in the employ of the CIA and that they received payment from Howard Hunt under the name "Eduardo," … They arrived in Dallas on 21 November 1963, and stayed at a motel, where the group met Howard Hunt. Hunt stayed for about forty-five minutes and at one point handed an envelope of cash to Sturgis. About an hour after Hunt left, Jack Ruby came to the door. Lorenz says that this was the first time she had seen Ruby. By this time, she said, it was early evening. In her testimony, Lorenz identified herself and her fellow passengers as members of Operation Forty, the CIA-directed assassination team formed in 1960 in preparation for the Bay of Pigs invasion. She described her role as that of a "decoy."

(5) Gaeton Fonzi, The Last Investigation (1993)
In retrospect, one result of this whole soap-opera scenario (the Marita Lorenz story) – the factor that still feeds my suspicion of collusion – was a successful diversion, from the Schweiker probe through to the House Assassinations Committee, of our limited investigation resources. And, in the process, it injected a dose of slapstick that would impair any future attempt to conduct a serious investigation into the possible involvement of E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis in the Kennedy assassination.

Some good material there, unfortunately the CIA continued and still continues to obstruct the truth. No admission of an alternate to the lone nut theory.



I would think that the planners at Langley were the masterminds and were all on the same page on this, they did not want to leave anything to chance. Angleton, Dulles, Hunt, maybe other higher ups who were planning this; they gave orders on the plans for the assassins and with some back up plans.

They had to have a plan had after the initial shots Kennedy had been shielded by Jackie, getting him down. At that point all bets were off. Did they have back up plans to kill JFK if he had survived the assassin bullets?
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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Slav » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:12 am

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.ca/2013/12/ ... d.html?m=1

No mention of files and Nicoletti

Conflicting shooter location
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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Slav » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:23 am

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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Tom Bigg » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:41 pm

Slav wrote:http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.ca/2013/12/six-jfk-shooters-including-three-tied.html?m=1

No mention of files and Nicoletti

Conflicting shooter location


Fetzer is unreliable; he sees conspiracies everywhere and many of his judgments have proven to be not plausible.
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Re: Conflicting versions on grassy knoll/fence shooter

Postby Bob » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:05 pm

I like Jim Fetzer and I have been on his Real Deal show a couple of times in the past. But that doesn't mean I don't disagree with him at times. Jim and I have debated the story that Jimmy Files has told and Jim thinks the biggest thing that disqualifies Files is that he never said the motorcade stopped. My response was that Jimmy did tell Jim Marrs and Wim in his 2003 interview that the motorcade did slow down quite a bit, but that his main focus was on JFK and not the speed of the motorcade. Plus, in one my conversations with Jimmy and Bruce, Jimmy told me that he felt like the motorcade slowed to a crawl at one point. Jimmy wasn't sure if the motorcade actually stopped, because again his focus was on JFK, but it did slow down almost to a halt. That coincides with over 50 witnesses who have said the same thing.
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