TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

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TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby ChristophMessner » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:02 pm

Below there is list of TSBD employees of 1963. I marked the ones, who are suspicious somehow to me in red and the ones we have no testimony of in green. By time I might add more details to each.
Does anybody of you have more information on any?

Adams, Victoria http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
Arce, Danny Garcia http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arce.htmhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arce1.htm
Berry, Jane
Burns, Doris http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burns.htm
Campbell, O.V. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1435.htm
Case, Dena
Clay, Herman M.
Davis, Avery
Dean, J.E.
Dickerson, A.D.
Dorman, Elsie
Dougherty, Jack E. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/doughert.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/dougher1.htm
Ford, Terrence S.
Frazier, Buell Wesley http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htmhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb2.htmhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb4.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb3.htm
Garner, Dorothy
Givins, Charles Douglas http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens1.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens.htm
Hawkins, Peggy Bigler
Hendrix, Georgia Ruth
Hine, Geneva L. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hine.htm She said, that "all girls" and Mr. Otis Williams would have went outside to see the motorcade. She herself was watching from 2nd floor office east window. After the shots she knocked at the offices of Lyons and Carnahan publishing company and Southwestern Publishing Co company and went backwards insided of the building to the back hall and back to her office in the 2nd floor. She met Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina, Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell and policemen and press there. Campbell insisted on getting a phone.
Hollis, Mary
Hopson, Oliver
Jarman, Joe Earl http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/jarman1.htm
Jones, Carl Edward
Junker, Herbert Lester
Koonas, Dolores P. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1436.htm
Kramer, Sandra Sue
Lawrence, Patricia Ann http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1430.htm She was outside standing in the front row on Elm at Houston with Lucy Withaker. She heard shots above her head, looked up and saw nothing. Later she went in into the TSBD.
Lewis, Ray Edward
McCully, Judy
Molina, Joe Rodrequez http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/molina.htm He was standing on the front steps, to his left was Mr. Williams, to his right Mrs. Pauline Sanders, to his front Truly and Campbell. He said, he did not see a policeman coming in with Truly.

Nelson, Ruth
Norman, Harold Dean http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
Oswald, Lee Harvey
Parker, William V.
Piper, Eddie http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/piper2.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/piper3.htm
He was watching the motorcade from a 1st floor window. Did NOT see Vickie Adams nor anybody coming down the stairs, but saw the elevators coming down. Gives a wrong time for the time of the shots in his affidavit: 12:55. Points suspiciously much to Oswald as possible assassin. ! Testimony part 1 is missing on McAdams witness website.

Rackley, Virgie = Baker, Mrs. Donald http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker.htm She stood outside directly in front of the TSBD. She saw a bullet hit the street, before she heard the second shot. Immediately after she ran to the railroads and saw policeman and several others there. Confirms smelling gunsmoke and meeting a spectator, who was sitting on the wall, "having seen it all" (probably Howard Brennan).

Reed, Martha
Reese, Jim
Reid, Mrs. Robert A. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/reid.htm She went out of the lunchroom at about some minutes before 12:30 (but she says it was 12:30!) and "can't remember" whether she was alone there. She took the east passanger elevator from the 2nd to the 1st and then went out through the front door. ! Then she stands several minutes there with Truly and Campell. After the shots she ran back into her office by the front stairs and there she met Oswald holding a full coke ! There is a strange interruption of Mr. Dulles by Mr. Belin in her interrogation concerning the time frame Mrs. Reid needed to reach Oswald there. Before they had reenacted and stopwatched that: 2 minutes, she said.
Sanders, Robert E.
Shelley,
Stanton, Sara
Styles, Sandra http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=73990&mesg_id=73990 According to her she ran down the staircase with Vickie Adams from the 4th floor not at 12:31 but a couple of minutes later and only after trying to get the east passenger elevator, which did not come up.
Thornton, Betty
Truly, Roy S. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htmhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly2.htm

Unknown girl working for Southwestern Publishing Co. According to Mrs. Hine she was in it's office in the TSBD at 12:30 an talking to the telephone.
Viles, L.R.
Watley, Lee Mrs. She was working the publishing company Lyons and Carnahan inside of the TSBD, close to Mrs. Hine's office. It's unknown whether she was in the building at 12:30.
West, Troy Eugene http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/west.htm He was on the 1st floor and didn't hear a shot!
Whitaker, H.G.
Williams, Bonnie Ray http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm
Williams, Marc Lee
Williams, Otis N.


Pretty many employees, who gave no testimony at all, aren't there? And I think it is remarkable to notice, that Mrs Rackley aka Baker confirmed a bullet hitting the street, that destroys the 3-shots-only-theory once more, and to see that Mrs. Reid used the same elevator Oswald might have used, the east passenger elevator, and that she stood close to TSBD-superindentent Mr. Truly and TSBD-vice-president Mr. Campbell outside. Did she bring that elevator into position?

It also does make sense to take a deeper look at the special agents who were in the TSBD. Mr. Pinkston and Frankie Kaiser were some of them, but McAdams lists them as "TSBD employees" on his witness website http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm. Sheriff Mooney said " ... I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes" when he went up the staircase! But that was after Mooney searched the railroad yard. Officers Webster and Vickery met with Monney on the 7th floor before Mooney "found" the shells at the "sniper's nest". Why hiding a rifle and leaving the shells anyway?
Last edited by ChristophMessner on Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby kenmurray » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:25 pm

Great stuff Christoph. We can also mention Margie Barnes who was a Dallas police clerk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJb1xIHr_XY
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby Bob » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:21 pm

Nice work there Chris. Plus, let's not forget who owned the TSBD on 11/22/1963...D.H. Byrd. Still looking for the book you requested Chris.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/MDbyrdDH.htm

In case some of you don't know, Byrd also founded the Lousiana Civil Air Patrol.

The LCAP alumni include David Ferrie, Lee Harvey Oswald, James R. Bath (George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard pal and fellow AWOL truant as well as Bin Laden family agent), Charles Rogers, John Liggett and also Barry Seal. Liggett was a Dallas mortician who was considered the best in face and head reconstruction, and was possibly utilized to alter the true appearance of JFK after the assassination (Thom, what does David Lifton think of Liggett?). Byrd was also in the Dallas Petroleum Club along with David Atlee Phillips, George DeMohrenshildt and Poppy Bu$h and was VERY good friends with LBJ. The LCAP was always known as a CIA breeding ground.
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby tom jeffers » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:08 pm

chris

how did you compile this list and why isn't billy lovelady on it? nice work

tom
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby Bob » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:41 pm

tom jeffers wrote:chris

how did you compile this list and why isn't billy lovelady on it? nice work

tom


Yes Tom...I was wondering about Billy Lovelady as well.

http://www.whokilledjfk.net/altgens.htm
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby Martin Hinrichs » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:42 pm

Good work Chris.

This might help to find out, who was where at 12:30 PM.
There are some of the "WC unasked" employees are listed.

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis ... /Index.htm

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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby Karl Kinaski » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:27 pm

There is an interesting part about another SBDB employee in Richard Bartholomews masterpiece;:

"Possible Discovery of an Automobile Used
in the JFK Conspiracy"

Quote:

"On April 26th, George Wing acquired a used Rambler station wagon from C.B. Smith Motors, an Austin, Texas dealership owned by C.B. Smith, a life-long student of Latin America, and one of Lyndon Johnson's closest friends. The sales manager was Smith's son, C.B. Smith, Jr."
(...)
"That fall, (1963)Ruth Hyde Paine helped arrange Oswald's employment at the Texas School Book Depository. Another employee in the same building was Fronia Smith, the ex-wife of C.B. Smith, Sr. and the mother of C.B. Smith, Jr."

Close quote

I shouldn't wonder if the SBDB employee Fronia Smith, the Ex-wife of a close LBJ- buddy, who sold a Rambler Station Waggon (btw. to a man, named Gordon Wing who was a friend of a John Foster Dulles son) maybe used in the assassination of JFK, was a kind of Oswald-Supervisor... ---however that be: it would seem that the SBDB employee Fronia Smith is a highly suspicious person.

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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby kenmurray » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:29 pm

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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby SeamusCoogan » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:41 pm

ChristophMessner wrote:Below there is list of TSBD employees of 1963. I marked the ones, who are suspicious somehow to me in red and the ones we have no testimony of in green. By time I might add more details to each.
Does anybody of you have more information on any?

Adams, Victoria http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
Arce, Danny Garcia http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arce.htmhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arce1.htm
Berry, Jane
Burns, Doris http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burns.htm
Campbell, O.V. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1435.htm
Case, Dena
Clay, Herman M.
Davis, Avery
Dean, J.E.
Dickerson, A.D.
Dorman, Elsie
Dougherty, Jack E. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/doughert.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/dougher1.htm
Ford, Terrence S.
Frazier, Buell Wesley http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htmhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb2.htmhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb4.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb3.htm
Garner, Dorothy
Givins, Charles Douglas http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens1.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens.htm
Hawkins, Peggy Bigler
Hendrix, Georgia Ruth
Hine, Geneva L. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hine.htm She said, that "all girls" and Mr. Otis Williams would have went outside to see the motorcade. She herself was watching from 2nd floor office east window. After the shots she knocked at the offices of Lyons and Carnahan publishing company and Southwestern Publishing Co company and went backwards insided of the building to the back hall and back to her office in the 2nd floor. She met Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina, Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell and policemen and press there. Campbell insisted on getting a phone.
Hollis, Mary
Hopson, Oliver
Jarman, Joe Earl http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/jarman1.htm
Jones, Carl Edward
Junker, Herbert Lester
Koonas, Dolores P. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1436.htm
Kramer, Sandra Sue
Lawrence, Patricia Ann http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1430.htm She was outside standing in the front row on Elm at Houston with Lucy Withaker. She heard shots above her head, looked up and saw nothing. Later she went in into the TSBD.
Lewis, Ray Edward
McCully, Judy
Molina, Joe Rodrequez http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/molina.htm He was standing on the front steps, to his left was Mr. Williams, to his right Mrs. Pauline Sanders, to his front Truly and Campbell. He said, he did not see a policeman coming in with Truly.

Nelson, Ruth
Norman, Harold Dean http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
Oswald, Lee Harvey
Parker, William V.
Piper, Eddie http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/piper2.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/piper3.htm
He was watching the motorcade from a 1st floor window. Did NOT see Vickie Adams nor anybody coming down the stairs, but saw the elevators coming down. Gives a wrong time for the time of the shots in his affidavit: 12:55. Points suspiciously much to Oswald as possible assassin. ! Testimony part 1 is missing on McAdams witness website.

Rackley, Virgie = Baker, Mrs. Donald http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker.htm She stood outside directly in front of the TSBD. She saw a bullet hit the street, before she heard the second shot. Immediately after she ran to the railroads and saw policeman and several others there. Confirms smelling gunsmoke and meeting a spectator, who was sitting on the wall, "having seen it all" (probably Howard Brennan).

Reed, Martha
Reese, Jim
Reid, Mrs. Robert A. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/reid.htm She went out of the lunchroom at about some minutes before 12:30 (but she says it was 12:30!) and "can't remember" whether she was alone there. She took the east passanger elevator from the 2nd to the 1st and then went out through the front door. ! Then she stands several minutes there with Truly and Campell. After the shots she ran back into her office by the front stairs and there she met Oswald holding a full coke ! There is a strange interruption of Mr. Dulles by Mr. Belin in her interrogation concerning the time frame Mrs. Reid needed to reach Oswald there. Before they had reenacted and stopwatched that: 2 minutes, she said.
Sanders, Robert E.
Stanton, Sara
Styler, Sandra She ran down the staircase with Vicke Adams from the 4th floor at 12:31!
Thornton, Betty
Truly, Roy S. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htmhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly2.htm

Unknown girl working for Southwestern Publishing Co. According to Mrs. Hine she was in it's office in the TSBD at 12:30 an talking to the telephone.
Viles, L.R.
Watley, Lee Mrs. She was working the publishing company Lyons and Carnahan inside of the TSBD, close to Mrs. Hine's office. It's unknown whether she was in the building at 12:30.
West, Troy Eugene http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/west.htm He was on the 1st floor and didn't hear a shot!
Whitaker, H.G.
Williams, Bonnie Ray http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm
Williams, Marc Lee
Williams, Otis N.


Pretty many employees, who gave no testimony at all, aren't there? And I think it is remarkable to notice, that Mrs Rackley aka Baker confirmed a bullet hitting the street, that destroys the 3-shots-only-theory once more, and to see that Mrs. Reid used the same elevator Oswald might have used, the east passenger elevator, and that she stood close to TSBD-superindentent Mr. Truly and TSBD-vice-president Mr. Campbell outside. Did she bring that elevator into position?

It also does make sense to take a deeper look at the special agents who were in the TSBD. Mr. Pinkston and Frankie Kaiser were some of them, but McAdams lists them as "TSBD employees" on his witness website http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm. Sheriff Mooney said " ... I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes" when he went up the staircase! But that was after Mooney searched the railroad yard. Officers Webster and Vickery met with Monney on the 7th floor before Mooney "found" the shells at the "sniper's nest". Why hiding a rifle and leaving the shells anyway?


Nice work mate, Yeh Lovelady is missing. Georgia Hendrix. Hmmmmm Hal Hendrix anyone?
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby kenmurray » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:58 pm

Seamus, good of you to bring up Hal Hendrix. :wink:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhendrixH.htm
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby ChristophMessner » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:50 am

Oops, yes, I forgot Billy Lovelady, sorry! Let's insert him then. Maybe more people even are still missing in this list. The question is: where do we get more information about those?
Hal Hendrix ... very interesting association ...

One recent guess of mine:
Lee Harvey Oswald did not see any of the real assissins on 22/11/63, that would have been much too dangerous for him. The job David Atlee Phillips told him for that day was to hide a rifle on the 6th floor near the staircase in the morning and to be inside of the 2nd floor while the motorcade came by and to come into the theatre later, that's all. The real assassins stayed on the 6th after the shooting and acted like SS-men afterwards. Jack Dougherty's job was to secure nobody would use the elevator at the wrong time.

And here more interesting stuff from Kathy on jfkassassinationforum:
http://www.dealey.org/updown.pdf
http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=73990&mesg_id=73990
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby ChristophMessner » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:13 pm

To you all,
"Miles" on the jfkassassinationforum recently has described in detail why Oswald could not have made it in time to meet Baker & Truly on the 2nd floor, if he actually would have been on the 6th floor window shooting somebody, mainly cause the rifle was well hidden with boxes all around which needed time to arrange and because the door to the hallway in front of the lunchroom must have been in visible closing-mechanism-action still, but it wasn't.
So I ask myself and you:

1. How high is the probability for the real gunmen on the 6th to move up to the 7th immediately after the shooting and wait there for a while without being seen by Baker&Truly, hide their weapons there and change clothes into regular we-search-the-assassin-with-Fritz-men? Who are the most probable names for that job?
2. How high is the probability that Jack Dougherty accompanied the real gunmen via elevator to backdoor exits unseen by anybody else?
3. Why didn't Jack Dougherty not jump from 5th to 6th immediately after he heard the shot (singular!) to see, what's the matter there?
4. If anybody wanted to set up Oswald at the 6th floor, why didn't they just surprise Oswald there immediately after the shots?
5. Why didn't Oswald take care about an alibi, by just standing outside visibly at 12:30?
6. When did the real gunmen enter the TSBD before the shooting and how did they manage to remain unseen by anybody?
7. If Oswald hid the rifle, he would have hidden the shells as well, right?
8. Who made Jack and the 3 black go to the 5th floor during the time of the shooting?
9. Did the shooter(s) from TSBD just shoot into the air to divert from the real shooters elsewhere and to help set up Oswald?
10. If they planned to set up Oswald in the TSBD, and it would not have worked at all, who would have been the patsy then?

Christoph
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Richard Gilbride

Postby Phil Dragoo » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:14 am

THE ELEVATOR ESCAPE THEORY
http://reopenkennedycase.weebly.com/gilbride.html

Christoph

I found the above by Richard Gilbride to be enormously thought-provoking.

I have just seen a photo from the National Archives showing TWO shell casings and one complete cartridge as "evidence"--whoops, they had to revise the two to three.
http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1168&d=1272115301

And we have the account of Roger D. Craig finding the Mauser--er, the insert-the-revised-make-of-rifle-here.

The Depository has been called a Potemkin stage set. From the Byrd at the top to the janitor with the funny hair patch, it was a midway carnie operation, and Oswald was the patsy.
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Re: TSBD employees: who of them helped or were the assassin(s)?

Postby ChristophMessner » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:54 pm

You tell it, Phil, you tell it!
Thanks a lot for your link to the most interesting article of Mr. Gilbride!
I did not know it so far and discussed it immediately after reading on jfkassassinationforum.
The following questions are remaining to me:

1. It is very impobable that the CIA/MOB/CUBANS-group on Dealey Plaza placed one of their hitmen inside the TSBD to let them being surprised or even only seen by employees, right?

2. So the job for the TSBD-group was only to divert from the real hitmen elsewhere and to setup Oswald and to build sniper's nests and make a loud bang to divert and lead all police and further investigations into that building, right?

3. Did the bang-makers on the 6th floor really shoot or only impersonate?

4. How did they manage to being not surprised by any employee during the shooting? Ok, we have watchdog Jack Dougherty. Was he a shooter? Probably too big and white for the thin and dark complexioned persons Arnold Rowland had seen. So most probably the shooters were either other employees or "secret service men who protected the president".

5. Who gave the order to the 3 blacks, Williams, Jarman, Norman, to get up to the 5th short before the motorcade came and stay there and not see Jack Dougherty? Sheriff Decker hated the blacks ...

6. Who told the 3 blacks and Jack not to jump up to the 6th and look who there was? Only fear?

7. Why did Jack Dougherty tell he heard only one shot? Cause there WAS only one shot from inside the building?

8. Why did "Oswald" hid a rifle, but not-hid the shells?

9. Why did the impersonators in the window be so careless about being seen by spectators while leaning on the windows and why did they not care about looking more similar to Oswald?

10. Where was the Oswald impersonator, who shot from the east window, from the time of the shooting until he entered the green rambler wagon?

11. Did the other rifle man from the west window, who was observed by Arnold Rowland, leave a pool of blood in the rear of the TSBD?

12. How did Oswald's controller convince Oswald to stay inside the building during the shooting?
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